We agree with docking tails

[Laneee]

Hi, all - Lane from Cerca Trova here again.  The docked tail in the Bracco is important for several reasons.  First and foremost, a long tail in this dog generally gets damaged.  Second, a long tail changes the movement of the dog.  A Bracco has a long, beautiful trot, different from any other breed.  Third - this is how the Italians have done it for a very long time.  It is our responsibility to continue the traditions they have set.  And finally, why should a docked tail not be required?  It is done at 2-4 days, with no lasting pain (not more than an hour or so.)

[Barba Bagnata Spinoni]

Commenting on the tail docking. Having had my Spinoni litters and tail docking, from what I have seen, those wee ones have a moment of discomfort when the tail is docked, but immediately after seem to be back to sleeping or nursing peacefully without a concern of what occurred moments earlier.

The only concern I have about tail docking is the govm't getting involved, as is happening in other countries, and a ban on tail docking. I do think there needs to be an allowance for undocked tails, to accommodate possible changing laws in the US, but also to accommodate importing dogs from countries that ban docking. The tail does not make or break a Bracco, so with or without it, a great specimen should be considered and not be penalized.

Tammara

[SusanC]

Hi everyone,

I agree with the docking of the tails.  I have 2 Weims and they have their tails docked, i wouldn't want to think of what life with tails would be like!  My other concern is that I would like ask why dew claws are not being removed at the time of the tail docking? I think it should be a standard proccedure for dogs in the hunting breed.  Both of my Weims have theirs removed when the tails were docked. 

[Tina F.]

I have to agree with Susan C.  One of our docked tail dogs was a Germ. SH Pointer.  Aso all of our dogs have had their dewclaws removed.  This is done mostly for everyone's safety--the dogs when they are in the field are less likely to get snagged and torn on rocks/brush, and for their peeps at home when they play with us.  And I also agree with Tammara that not docking shouldn't be penalized.  As we all know there are some European countries that are now banning docking and cropping.  It's too bad, but that's what's happened. (ps-The other docked tail was to our Rottie.  I could not imagine a Rottie with a tail, and Lane, yes, I could see how it would totally affect the way of going with a tail!)

[Tina]

Hello All
At first I thought I will not react or respond to all your discussion but reading this topic I have to!
In the European goverment there is a law that we are forbidden to dock tails with ALL animal. Some country's like Italy have dispensation so a vetanarian can dock tails with the Bracco Italiano (not that people call a vetanarian but there is no control). Many other Europoean country's cannot do this and I am sure that in time also in Italy docking tails will be forbidden. So it is just a matter of time
We have experiance for many years with undocked Bracchi who hunt and who live in our house. And we have ten Bracchi live in our house. All our Bracchi except our youngest one ( 9 month) have field trail qualifications and are used at our own hunting in Holland but also in Scotland and Denmark. This to let you know that I am realy know what I am talking about.
Now my reaction:
Lane say's "First and foremost, a long tail in this dog generally gets damaged    Second, a long tail changes the movement of the dog 
Of all my ten dogs that as I say before live in my house and hunt never one have damaged his/her tail. Even from all our self bred Bracchi not ever one Bracchi hurt his/her tail. So it is maybe not so objected to write that generally undocked tails are damaged. Then the second comment, this is the reason why I react mostly. I am sorry Lane but who are you to tell that Bracchi move different in the field docked or undocked? Can you give me one reason why a Bracco with a tail of 15 cm move not the same like a bracco with a tail of 30 cm. It is kind of strange that this kind of argument are put in this topic, because this is so totaly wrong to write that all dogs with a long tail are not good dogs. With this Laneee YOU degree all the perfect dogs with long tails that have achieve more then your dog ever will achive. I hope that peole realize that at these topics most arguments are build up out of no experiance or fact but just out of ...........i do not know 
PS: sorry if my english is not that good, I am from Holland

[Tina]

Hi All,
Something to think about when you dock the tails of your puppies.

Department of Veterinary Surgery, University of Bristol, Langford.

The association in bitches between breed, size, neutering and docking, and acquired incompetence of the urethral sphincter mechanism was investigated. Observational studies were conducted on referred and first-opinion cases of hormonal urinary incontinence and on referred, confirmed cases of incompetence of the urethral sphincter mechanism. Large and giant breeds were at high risk, whereas small breeds were at low risk. Specific breeds at high risk were the old english sheep-dog, rottweiler, dobermann pinscher, weimaraner and Irish setter. The labrador retriever had a relatively low risk. There was also a positive association between docking and neutering, and the two conditions.

PMID: 8236712 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[SusanC]

Hi everyone!

I wanted to ask Tina a question in regards to the dewclaws and how thats handled? 

[chrisw]

I think we should be permitted to continue with the Italian Breed the way the Italians do. 
After all, are they not Bracco Italiano?

Also, a message for Tina...I do not think Lane is trying to "tell" any one how it must be.  If Lane was interested in hearing only her own opinion, she definitely would not have created this forum to discuss it.  We live in the US, were we hear everyone's opinions and consider them equally important.  This is just Lane's opinion...as you have yours.  I understand that Holland and much of Europe has banned docking; however, we are talking about setting up US standards.

My concern limitting to "only docked tails" is the elimination of "new blood" from European countries where it is not done.  For this reason, I would hate to penalize in any way for a non-docked tail.

[Laneee]

somehow tina got the impression that i said that all dogs which are long-tailed are not good dogs.... or maybe that is what she is afraid that people think, since those people in parts of europe, and holland, no longer have a choice.  i did not say that and do not think that.  I am sure that there are many good long-tailed dogs - but i do not want to change the italian way, as long as we have the choice.  i am glad that she has not had the problems with long-tailed dogs hurting themselves, but many people have, we have heard.  One of our puppy owners went to europe to a well-known kennel there - and told us that he saw most of the long-tailed bracchi in that kennel had tails with injuries which seemed to have come from whipping the tails against the fences and from working in the field.  We know that  these injuries are not unusual - we have had dalmatians and great danes (and a german shepherd) at our home with the same sorts of injuries, but it sounds as if tina is very lucky with no problems.

i also think that long-tailed bracchi should not be penalized, except to note that they are not conforming to the italian standard.  if a long-tailed bracco comes closer to the standard than a docked-tail bracco, the long-tail should place over the docked-tail dog.

[Tina]

Hello everybody,
It seems that Lane feels attacked by my writing, even so badly that she does not want to give her opinion or answers in other topics too. It was not at all my intention to forbid Lane to have a opinion. So Lane please do your thing and do not held back for me. 
I think that when you start a forum topic you have to be ready for some discussion and also have your facts strait. Lane give her opinion, nothing wrong about that, the arguments she use to make this opinion important is in my eyes most unpleasant for people who have a Bracco with tail and not realistic at all and yes I did somehow got the impression that lane mend that undocked dogs are not so good as docked dogs. Maybe it is in my English that I misunderstood the following sentence of Lane; "a long tail changes the movement of the dog". And then write about how important the trot for the Bracco is. 
Well, I have asked Lane in my first writing if she could give us some kind of explanation what kind of changes the dogs show in their movement. Please tell us in this forum what is the different is in movement and do you know how to explain this with only 15 centimetres less or more Bracco? 
Of course this discussion is all about the Bracchi in the USA, thank for pointing that out to me. I have been invited by Lane’s or Dan’s e-mail to join this forum and enter the discussions. And I still feel welcome. And although I am not from the USA I maybe can be of any help. I even can become a member of the BICA, we where members of the NABIC and where asked us to be on the Advisory Board of Directors, we have wrote or talked with many people who have a Bracco in the USA, we also where present at the first Bracco seminar. So I do feel a little at home in this forum. 
For most of us in Europe it was a shock not to be able to dock anymore. But now we are used to it we see the positive things about it. We do not have to be afraid of infection when the puppies are docked, there is less change for female to loose urine when they have been (spaid?) castrate and we recognize genetic tail problems wits ARE familiar in the Bracchi.
I cannot believe that I am only lucky to have dogs with a tail that are not damaged, I have visit many breeders all over Europe and never saw dogs who have problems. The tail problems in Finland witch your puppy owner revere to I have never seen and I have seen many dogs of this kennel. But I will ask the owner of this kennel in a e-mail if this  indeed is a big problem. I will be back with her answer in this forum as soon as possible. 
Now the rules: 
At this moment you cannot enter a docked dog for shows or field trails in Finland, Norway, Denmark, and Germany ( one exception for Germany: only a docked dog from a owner with a hunting license can enter a show or field trail in Germany) . In Holland, the rules are a bit different; when we have a litter we are not aloud to dock. We can enter a docked dog but only IF this dog come from a country that does not forbid docking. 
Now, lets look at the rules in Italy the “homeland of the Bracco Italiano”.
Everybody can enter his/hers dog to a show or field trail in Italy if it is undocked or docked. You can even get excellent remark or qualifications with undocked dogs. So if you want to follow the rules of Italy........it is possible to have docked or undocked dogs.
Kind regard Tina

[AmyFast]

There are several issues effecting the health of the dog - namely the longer tail can become damaged when the dog is hunting through heavier brush or it is more easily broken. Redocking or amputation as an adult has serious risks. I don't enjoy docking tails (or watching the vet do it) but in the long run it's easier than dealing with major surgery. I've watched my Weimaraner puppies go through the procedure. If done correctly and before 48 hours of age, there is minimal discomfort and the puppies heal very quickly. Additionally I think all of the dewclaws should be removed, they catch on everything and they just don't need them for the job they do.